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Dr Resheph
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.03.31 19:58:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Dr Resheph on 31/03/2009 19:58:43
 Originally by: CCP Chronotis
1. Bombers will be able to fit covert ops cloak
BIG FAT RESOUNDING "NO".
By adding a cloak reactivation delay, you've removed the stealth aspect of cloaking in combat and shifted it towards the preliminary ambush and setup phase. Do you really think Stealth Bombers need help ambushing targets when they can cyno right on top of them? Black Ops using portals are the ultimate in gank tactics because you land right on top of the target, avoiding the warp-to-target delay, local detection and sometimes enemy scouts in adjacent systems.
Warping while cloaked caters to people who want to use the ship in a solo environment where portals aren't a given and Covert Ops becomes incredibly useful for travel safety. But it adds nothing to the combat itself, and takes away two important tools:
- The first is the lack of additional cloaked velocity, which I no longer see mentioned.
- The second is your inability to use decloak/recloak to harass big ships with slow lock times.
You've basically made these ships worse in actual combat just because some people won't accept interdependent ship roles, on a goddamn niche ship no less. You've also made Black Ops the only ship class in the entire formation which can't warp cloaked. Besides their ridiculous price tag, you now have one important tactical incentive to keep them out of the fight and only use them as a portal platform for hotdropping on victims.
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
So an example Nemesis bonus description will be like this:
Gallente Frigate Skill Bonus:
20% bonus to Torpedo Explosion velocity per level
10% bonus to Torpedo velocity per level
Covert Ops Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to bomb thermal damage per level
10% bonus to Torpedo thermal damage per level
Role Bonus:
-99.5% reduction in Siege Missile Launcher powergrid needs
-99% reduction in Bomb Launcher CPU use
-100% targeting delay after decloaking
The Gallente Frigate bonuses to velocity and explosion velocity are completely necessary.
It's an obvious compromise solution for those who want to snipe from a distance. No different from the previous suggestion of 'keeping cruise launcher fitting bonus'. Fighting at a distance has nothing to do with its new role, and the only thing these bonuses do is overpower Rage Torpedoes even more. There is a big practical difference in ~16km and ~24km effective range. Oh, and last I checked, Tier 3 Battleships needed an afterburner before the explosion velocity of Rage starts to make Tech 1 torpedoes attractive.
You should worry more about the effectiveness of the whole Stealth Bomber platform.
I see nothing about tweaking Bomb Launchers so they don't consume a missile hardpoint. Right now the ships can only be used for one of its two roles at a time.
I see nothing about powergrid changes to the ship, or reduction of fittings to covert cynos. You're fitting BS weapons a frig, and yet they consume twice as much fittings despite its unique bonus. Why should MAPC be standard low slot fitting? It means you have fewer EW options in your mid slots because of CPU constraints.
I see nothing about improving their warp efficiency, which currently prevents them from crossing some systems. 6au/s warp speed is fine, but if they cap out every couple jumps they are no longer viable in frigate gangs.
I see nothing about lowering the build cost of the ships themselves, to compensate for the mandatory cloak and BS-sized fittings. Covert Ops Frigates compensate for this, but Stealth Bombers cost more even though its under the same market group (as much as Assault Frigs). And that's before you get into discussions about bomb costs.
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Dr Resheph
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.03.31 20:30:00 -
[2]
I mentioned another issue I have with covert ops in the 4th Tech 3 subsystem thread, but forgot to state it here.
This is power creep. Force Recons being the only Covert combat ships in the game, their DPS tops out at 150-200 on a good day (at under 20k). That compares with a decently fit close range frigate (under 3k). Tech 3 will double or triple that both in damage and tank. Bombers with torpedoes easily do 250-300.
That's almost two dozen tech 2 ships, and hundreds of tech 3 cloaking variants which are impossible to interdict in empire. You know, that place where two thirds of all players reside and sees plenty of PVP? This ignores the issue of cloak detection and counters, of which there currently are NONE. Or the issue of local/intel overhauls this year where any non-cloaking ship is at extreme disadvantage.
Cloaking proliferation means that for any sub-fleet and sub-capital combat, an encounter is almost guaranteed. Which results in cloaking losing its niche status and getting the nerf bat.
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Dr Resheph
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.03.31 20:32:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Jalif
Concept was nice, but this is not going to work on TQ at all. Stealthbombers should become the ultimate sniper platform for snipers tbh. Why not give them the ability to shoot from 249km with rather good skills and a higher damage bonus?
Here is the point where you invalidated all that testing and feedback. 
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Dr Resheph
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.04.02 01:35:00 -
[4]
EVE players are seriously stupid sometimes.
When they came out everybody complained how useless they were, and yet-another-frigate-killer class of ship was redundant. Now you have people saying how awesome and useful they were, and how they should be left alone.
The role change should've happened ages ago. Not only do reversals of proposed changes never EVER happen once they're on SISI, this is one case where they shouldn't.
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Dr Resheph
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.04.02 02:26:00 -
[5]
From SISI testing:
- 10% racial damage was good, 20% is absurd and overpowered
- covert cyno needs its fittings halved
- bomb bay STILL consumes a launcher hardpoint
- bombers STILL have their turret hardpoints
- velocity and exp velocity bonuses make T2 torps overpowered
- covert ops is overpowered, and still useless in combat, bring back improved + speed bonus
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Dr Resheph
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.04.02 22:43:00 -
[6]
On the issue of Cloak..
You claimed Improved Cloak + increased speed bonus was scrapped because it would allow these ships to get into position much quicker. Which part of this is bad? Most frigs can do >1km/s in their sleep. And most combat takes place under 30km by default anyway. Being able to maneuver into range is more tactical than giving people super fast torpedoes with velocity bonuses.
On the issue of Torpedoes and Bombs..
15% damage bonus is still too much, 10% was fine. Your bloated bonuses make having Covert Ops V a must and non-racial ammo useless even if the target is tanked for your type.
And bombs still consume a launcher hardpoint, even though they're based on a modified probe launcher. What the hell? All bombers have a 5th utility slot. If it can't be used on the bombers' second (less common) role, that's the equivalent of saying people should fit only a bomb launcher and fly them as disposable AOE ships. Losing one siege launcher to fit bombs is a big deal to your effectiveness in every other situation.
On the issue of Bombs/Bubbles in empire..
People obviously get ganked by smartbombs in places like Rancer. Do you honestly think someone's going to spam time-delayed and expensive ammo to hit ships that will probably take less damage than what a smartbomb-fitted battleship can do? Your dichotomy in play rules is what gets people killed and what makes the leap into 0.0 a huge one.
At the very least bombs and bubbles should be allowed in sanctioned wars. Right now the list of ships which are impossible to catch in empire and lowsec is simply growing.
On the issue of ship bonuses..
The fact that you're seriously considering signature bonuses on torpedoes is utterly terrifying. Even now, Rage should be bumped up to 830m.
Frigate:
50% cloaked velocity per level
Covert Ops:
10% racial damage
10% torpedo explosion velocity
Role:
Siege Fitting Bonus
Bomb Fitting Bonus
Cloak Reactivation Bonus
Cloak Lock Delay Bonus
In addition to the Rage signature nerf:
-remove turret hardpoints (redundant)
-50% Covert Cyno cpu/powergrid fittings
-remove missile hardpoint requirement for Bomb Bays
-keep the new agility boost, and decrease warp drive cost
In the end, the ship does two thirds the damage of a raven, but can fit either bombs or covert cynos at the same time. It can move around at 750-900m/s while cloaked (with Improved) and hit BS sized targets which are moving 150m/s with no damage reductions. It has the same torpedo ranges as current battleships do.
This ship is far more effective in a gang than current SB because:
-it can keep up in frigate gangs due to improved warp/agility
-it outdamages any current frigate when it comes to BS targets, and at far greater ranges
-it can use bombs or cynos without affecting its performance
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Dr Resheph
Amarr
YOU ARE NOW READING THIS LOUDLY
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Posted - 2009.04.04 16:44:00 -
[7]
CCP isn't taking away any role, swatting frigates isn't something unique to Stealth Bombers. The only difference is how its done, and I know from experience as an Interceptor pilot that SB are laughably ineffective compared to other ships.
What it boils down to is you want to use cruise to kill frigates because that gives you range and a sense of security. With Torpedoes you'd have to get closer and you'd be vulnerable to the majority of combat ships on weapons alone. Doubly so with paper thin hitpoints.
Quite frankly, making any ship less of a cowardmobile is going to get a rise out of players. 
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